Boycotting non-vegan companies that sell vegan products

Often I read that vegans shouldn’t buy vegans products from companies that also sell non-vegan products. People are saying that we should boycott them. But what we should do, buy products from vegan companies when there aren’t those companies in some countries or people don’t have the means to buy products from those companies. And what about people who want to go vegan who hear that it’s wrong  to buy vegan products from non-vegan companies but don’t have the means to buy those products from vegan companies.

One company which is I won’t name is popular for selling vegan products but they also sell animal products. We are being said that we should boycott them. Why.  Are we supporting use/cruelty in the same way as non-vegans who are buying animal products, no, because we in many cases don’t have a choice. Not all of us live in the countries where there are vegan companies or have means to buy vegan products on-line. Non-vegans have a choice to do the right thing, go vegan.  That’s privilege speaking if you saying that others who aren’t in your position do the things which you are doing. And that is the one of the reasons why vegan movement isn’t progressing faster than it should. Some assume that everyone is privileged as they are.

What those vegans are suggesting to people who are interested in veganism, go vegan only if you can buy products from vegan companies. If they happen to live in countries where are only non-vegan companies selling vegan products, saying that you should boycott them send the message that you can go vegan only if you privileged as some vegans are. And by the way the definitions of veganism don’t say that you shouldn’t buy vegan products from non-vegan companies.  One say “Veganism denotes a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude - as far as is possible and practical - all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing, or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals, and the environment.” Sometimes it isn’t practical or possible not to buy animal products from non-vegan companies.

Should you boycott stores that sell vegan and non-vegan products. If the criteria for boycotting is supporting cruelty/use of other animals, you should boycott those stores too and only buy from vegan stores. I heard that one is in Germany. Can you when you go into store that sells animal and non-animal products and buy vegan products say I don’t want my money to go to buying animal products, salaries of non-vegan employees, pockets of non-vegan owners who will buy animal products. Can you. I suspect that you can't. You are supporting use of other animals/cruelty when you are vegan too and buying vegan products, but you are supporting that indirectly and are doing the bare minimum for the other sentient beings.

Don’t forget people who own non-vegan companies are capitalist, so if its more profitable to sell vegan products and not to sell non-vegan products, what you think they will do. They will sell whatever its profitable. There is merit in saying if more vegans buy vegan products from those companies, they will include more vegan products. They are just responding to the demand. Advocating veganism creates more vegans, more demand for those companies who will respond.

I am not saying if you are in position where you can choice between vegan and non-vegan companies that you should buy vegan products from non-vegan companies, you should support vegan companies. I am saying that many vegans don’t have them means to buy vegan products from vegan companies or live where there are. 

Standing together

There is an effort from some vegans that we vegans need to stand together regardless of our differences, some huge and against very nature of veganism and animal rights.  It would be great if we could stand together as a group advocating for all animals. But sadly we cannot. I wonder will we ever can. How can we stand together if some vegans reject basis claims of animals rights, those people reject fundamental right of sentient being, right to live, reject veganism and the notion that the problem is use of other animals, not the treatment. These differences can’t be overcome, they are the foundation of animal rights. You see the problem with standing together for animal rights with someone who rejects it.

I read a while ago that if wouldn’t be good if we speak with one message, can’t remember the exact words. Really, sending consistent message to the people is apparently bad. It would be bad for PETA and other business would lose money if vegans who would start advocating unequivocally for other animals, stop doing speciesist single issue campaigns.  Groups who advocate for human rights send one consistent message, like racism is wrong, not some racism is ok. They are more and less successful because they are consistent and they don’t compromise, why would they, they know what are right, the know that they are fighting injustice.

Why can we vegans be like human rights advocates? Don’t compromise on the fundamentals, send one message that all animals have rights, that you cannot use them. Only in animal rights movement you can be for rights of sentient beings and use/killing of those sentient beings.

We too fight injustice, the injustice that some many don’t even recognize, that makes it hard and the reason why some many vegans choice to do SICs and advocating vegetarianism. It hard to fight against something that so many non-vegans say it doesn’t exist. But it’s not impossible to achieve our goals, a world without animals use. That may be pipe dream, but almost every social movement started as such. We must strive to better ourselves and the world and its start with individuals who choice to become vegan and with that passion advocate for veganism, for all animals. Future may be already doomed, if people are content with current state of the world. We can always be better and we can when we choose to. I am not saying we need to be perfect or strive to be, I suggesting that we can improve ourselves and the world.

I will not stand with vegans : who advocate for "saving" other animals when in fact they advocate, therefore support killing other sentient beings; who kill other animals and encourage other to do so; who write death threats to people with whom they disagree; who demand worship and paint other vegans who dare to question their sainthood as violent. But I will stand with vegans who tirelessly advocate for all animals, for their rights, who are saving other sentient beings by adopting and encourage others to do so if we they can, who teach others how to be vegan.

I didn’t wrote this post to create divide among vegans, because that would be impossible, we are already divided, not because someone’s desire to create divide, but because of people who think this movement is about advocates and not other sentient beings and I wanted to point out you can’t stand with someone who reject fundamental principles of your positions. And maybe¸ maybe some vegans who reject foundation of animal rights, veganism would reconsider their position and start advocating for veganism, for all animals, human and non-human. 

Discrimination of atheists

The discussing about atheism and theism in relation to animal rights has restarted. Maybe now they will stay in reality and use facts instead misleading other vegans and therefore protecting their influence in the movement. But don’t get your hopes up. Abolitionist movement, religious one is becoming more and more entrenched in fantasy.

I unlike some atheists (yes, the rumors are true, we, atheist don’t hold the same views) hold the view that atheism, taken as simple rejection of belief in any deity has no links to animal rights. We cannot know what that deity or deities if they exist think or wants us to do. If you extend atheism to be a rejection of certain deity that’s based on religious texts of one religion then atheism can have links to animal rights. I don’t extend atheism like that and believe it or not, I don’t like writing about religion vs. atheism when comes to animal rights, I would rather write about difference between two abolitionist movements and weflarist movement or moral imperative of veganism, but continual attacks on atheist vegans for maybe getting religious/spiritual non-vegans to be more open to idea of veganism, compels me to write about this. When majority of vegans are atheists it’s not good idea to alienate your base. 

You have to be extremely arrogant, ignorant or both to claim that atheist who are abolitionists too are the ones who discriminate against religious abolitionist vegans when in fact religious abolitionist vegans who bash atheism and discriminate against abolitionist atheist vegans by banning atheist’s posts on their pages, posts that don’t insult anyone, only challenge their ideas. Francione and his followers can repeat their mantra that you don’t have to be religious or spiritual to have moral concern about other animals as much as they want, but yet his or his fateful followers bashing of one side, atheism has shown that they have picked their side. 

I don’t know anyone who has said that you have to be atheist to be abolitionists. They confuse being critical of religion, in other words not liming critical thinking with saying you have to be atheist to be abolitionist. And they are making stuff up in albescence of evidence. That’s sad, really. Religious abolitionist vegans who bash atheism are the problem, not us. They are the ones who make me and others write about this topic instead of educating people about veganism. They are hindering the progression of the movement by suppressing critical thought. If someone writes critically about religion that doesn’t mean you should start the inquisition towards atheists. 

In the discussing about atheism and animal rights there were no atheists as far as I know supporting the right wing ideas. Present the evidence, the posts where atheist abolitionist vegan supported war or other forms of violence. And religious vegans see atheism and religion as same thing because they apply characteristics of religion to atheism, relicense on dogmas and leadership. There is no dogmas or leadership in atheism. Atheism is not organized system of beliefs. So they take position of one atheist who they despise the most, Hitchens to be a position of all atheists. Now you have a problem. You have taken ideas of one atheist to be accepted by all atheists. Hitchens' writings are not dogmas. He is not a pope of atheists. Atheists don’t accept ideas on basis of authority or influence. Everything must go throw rigors filter of critical thought.

If we are confused group, what makes you, a people who claim to reject all forms of discrimination, but discriminate against atheists, by not allowing us to be heard and misleading people by fabricating positions that majority of us don’t hold.

For the end, yes, I am militant atheist who by the way don’t like that term and use freethinker instead, who rejects violence and I think that violence can only be used to defend yourself and others when other avenues of defense are exhausted.

Power play of elitists

Why people who are vegans are so against unequivocal vegan advocacy. You would think that being a vegan would make a person advocate for veganism. But no, that would be consistent, moral and right. And advocacy of those people share no morality or consistency with animal rights philosophy.

The reason why some vegans, sadly their numbers are not small, oppose advocating veganism, critical thinking. They want to preserve power over you and they are elitists, they think that they are better than you. In order to preserve power they have to limit your exposure to new information. Information is the power. Giving only information that is in favor of their goals they assure their status remains the same. They aren’t doing anything new, all power figures tend to control what information you receive so they can remain in power. 

But they have a problem with controlling flow of information, the internet. Anybody on the internet can say whatever they want. There is lot of stupid things on the web. That is not of concern of elitists. Internet has an other side, the good one, where people exchange new ideas, discuss them, accept or reject ideas. We come to their real problem of maintaining power, how can they limit flow of new ideas on internet where free speech is the rule (with exception of countries afraid of their citizens). They have a few tools as their disposal.  First one is there are better things to do than (think critically) than engage in discussions, learn new stuff, defend your position. You have a problem with defending your position, if your position, welfarist, has no facts, evidence to support it's claim of helping other animals. So what those elitists do when you have no facts to support you claims, tell you that discussions are bad things. Critical thinking that awful thing that should be avoided at all cost it’s the only thing that has a power of stripping them of their power. Why would you use your brain when they will use it for you and decide what’s good for you and what information you can receive? It’s not like that you and them both capable of deciding for yourselves, the value of new information.

Their mantra is there is no evidence that welfarism is counterproductive to ending use of other animals. Of course we don’t have evidences, besides the fact that use of other sentient being is increasing and we have welfarism for centuries and their campaigns for decades that haven’t brought us any closer to abolition of animal use. They think by repeating the same bullshit over and over again that will somehow become the fact.

The next thing they say is there is no debate over two opposing views; they are two sides of the same issue, therefore ignoring reality and once again facts. Two opposing views are abolitionist approach and welfarist. Many advocates and I wrote about differences between those views before. One, the abolitionist one seeks to abolish use of other sentient beings and welfarist wants reform that use with no intention of ending use. How can they be different tactics of the same approach? To some people you are a bully if you express an opinion that different from elitists without intention of harm. Do they know that calling that bullying they are distorting the meaning of a word which is highly dangerous. Bullying kills so many people and calling a different opinion without sinister intention a bullying is disgusting. They put on the same plain critical thinking and psychological and physical abuse.

Another mantra is that we should all get along; it doesn’t matter if we are doing opposing things. That begs the question how we are going to all get along when some advocate for murder and rape of sentient beings but others advocate for veganism. Yes, vegans who promote animal use say that they want to see use of other animals be gone, but they are doing the opposite thing, they promote thing they clam to want abolished. You can claim that you want to see use of other sentient beings abolished but because other people can’t read minds they only see your promotion of use of other animals. And that’s the problem. Unless you can develop and teach other people method of mind reading, you should stop promoting use and promote veganism unequivocally.

Big thing that some elitist have against other vegans is, you will never guess, promotion of veganism. We shouldn’t do that because some people may listen and decide to become vegan and apparently that’s bad. Instead they propose promotion of vegetarianism, ʺhappyʺ animal products that may or not leads to veganism. If people cannot go vegan at once, they can devise a plan, steps to achieve veganism. The idea that people need to be feed teaspoons of morality resides on notion that people are too stupid to understand facts about nature of use of other animals.

I know that’s insane idea for some that people are quite capable for thinking critically, for deciding what’s moral, what’s not. We, who welcome free exchange of ideas, just need to present new information, information of immorality of use of other sentient beings and let people make a decision.

Psychotic cult that kills other animals

Most beloved organization among so many animal activists, PETA kills other animals, opposes shelters that don’t kill other sentient beings, rarely promotes veganism, supports killings of other animals etc. I named few reasons why I not just oppose PETA, I want to see them gone. They are not animal rights organization, rather than welfarist organization that doesn’t promote animal rights.

It’s not very encouraging to see so many animal activists embrace that psychotic cult and promote their campaigns whose purpose is to promote PETA, to make profits and satisfy their sick urges. Those campaigns are not meant to help other animals. They can claim as long as they want that helping other animals is their goal, reality says otherwise. Progress of animal rights movement cannot happen if organizations like PETA run the show. How can you increase number of vegans if PETA says it’s ok to go vegetarian, in other words it's ok to rape and murder sentient beings for your own pleasure. Is there anything more insane than torturing and killing sentient beings for your own selfish desires? You have no need for animal products for food, clothes, no reason to use other sentient beings. What’s left if take away pleasure, you are left with delusions and insanity as reasons to use other animals.

Let’s go back to the topic. One of the main reasons why I oppose PETA is that they kill other healthy animals (they call it euthanasia, but it's murder) and defend it by saying they are no bad homes in heaven. They use delusions to make their case. They couldn’t go further from reality if they wanted.  http://www.nathanwinograd.com/?p=8651

PETA takes in thousands of cats, dogs, sometimes other animals for purpose of adoption and most of them end up killed by PETA, "lucky" ones are taken to kill shelters, because they oppose not killing other animals. Healthy other animals are killed. You would think that organizations that claims to be an animal rights be for fundamental right of a sentient being, right to live. Without that right other rights are meaningless. But no, PETA loves to kill other sentient beings. They even say it out loud ʺwe do not advocate 'right to life' for animalsʺ ~ Ingrid Newkirk.  Another quote from psychopath in chief "I'd go to work early, before anyone got there, and I would just kill the animals myself...I must have killed a thousand of them, sometimes dozens every day."

http://www.nathanwinograd.com/?p=8608

What animal advocates do, they express their support for PETA, therefore supporting killing and torturing other animals. PETA supporter have blood on their hands. Some of the defense of PETA is idiotic. It goes like they done so much for animals and what have you done lately. Nothing much, promoted unequivocally veganism and adoption but I haven’t taken other animals and injected them with poison. It does seem that not only I, but lot of other animal rights activists are not doing much for other animals because we are not killing them. This goes beyond painfully. How can you claim that ending lives of healthy sentient beings helps them? Second must used arguments for defending PETA is also stupid and illogical too PETA is not a shelter, then why in hell they take in other animals for purpose of adoption and kill them. Would you support an organization that says it wants to help homeless people but instead kills them? And would you say the same thing in their defense. One thing that can explain why PETA supporters and employers support horrifying atrocities against other animals is they are a cult led by psychopaths. No one in the right mind would propose killing healthy other animals as a way of helping them. New information, counter-arguments cannot penetrate their cult minds. Everything that contradicts what PETA's says is lie. I suggest that PETA establish a religion. They have a head start, dogma, followers who don’t like to use their brains. If they establish and religion they would have more followers and they can defend their actions by demanding respect for their religion. Defenders of PETA say that facts about PETA's killings of others animals is coming from CCF, Center for Consumer Freedom, but they ignore the fact that PETA reports to State of Virginia, from that comes their killing rates and from their own admission.

Results for 2011

http://www.nathanwinograd.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/PETA.2011.pdf

Opposing no-kill shelters is another sick thing that PETA does. How can you call yourself an animal rights organization and promote killings of other sentient beings. That doesn’t make sense. PETA sent a gift basket to shelters officials for what, can you guess, because they made a decision to start killing other animals. Unfortunately for PETA and their supporters that shelter didn’t start killing, but instead they remain a no-kill shelter.

http://www.nathanwinograd.com/?p=10210

They even are oppose to feeding starving stray other sentient beings. That’s awful thing to do, to give away food that you don’t need to a starving other animals. What kind of person can do such thing? How can you help other animals by giving them food, PETA would like you to catch other sentient beings and bring them to PETA who will kill them. 

http://www.peta.org/b/thepetafiles/archive/2011/08/24/a-beautiful-cat-meets-real-life.aspx
http://catdefender.blogspot.com/2011/10/peta-traps-and-kills-cat-and-then.html

PETA rarely promotes veganism, but when they do, they do it in twisted way.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/30/petas-shark-attack-ad_n_987791.html

They are right to rarely promote veganism because veganism has lose ties with animals rights, it’s not like that veganism is a foundation of animal rights. PETA and other weflarist organizations send the message that if you cannot be vegan, go vegetarian. And if you cannot do that, don’t eat one animal product on Monday. And write us the check if you cannot be a vegetarian for one day, we will help the other animals. They didn’t even set bar for helping other animals, the bar keeps moving.

PETA also supports killings of other nonhuman animals.

http://www.peta.org/features/the-case-for-controlled-atmosphere-killing.aspx

I guess they have to advocate for killing of other animals to remain consistent with their work and ʺanimal rightsʺ philosophy of not advocating right to live for other animals. I saw a petition sometimes ago about the saving chickens by killing them with a different method. How can you save a healthy other sentient beings by ending his life, I don’t know, lot of thing that PETA and their supporters do is not sane.

For sake of other animals PETA must be gone. They are a cult led by psychopaths whose mission is to kill other animals as many as they can to satisfy their twisted urges. And they will continue their atrocities against other sentient beings as long as they are people who give them money and support them. If a PETA supporter says to you PETA has done more for the other animals than you, you can respond by saying that’s not an insult but a compliment, the best one I can get as real animal rights advocate. 

Religion in animal rights movement

I know that by writing this post about this forbidden topic and I am opening a can of … peas. But I think it’s important to discuss it. Before I state my opinion on this subject, I have to say that I respect religious people and I don’t consider them stupid, bad people or anything else degrading, I just don’t respect religion. Now I would be impressed if you take my opposition of one of most successful tool of controlling people to claim that I hate or don’t respect religious people. It happens all time when you voice your opposition to religion.

I have seen an effort to suppress discussion of religion in animal rights movement. Some even say we shouldn’t discuss it. Why should we leave out that? Religion plays an integral part in the lives of many people, majority of them not vegans and they frequently use their religion to defend use of the other animals. Leaving out discussion of religion would cripple our advocacy.

Maybe some people won’t discuss people because of fear of driving religious people away. I am not suggesting when talking to religious people you automatically criticize his religion. When talking to people about veganism, I never did that. You know why? Because they didn’t use religious arguments. Often people ask me what I eat or is it hard not to eat animal products. We haven’t come to the discussion of the philosophy of veganism. But when we do, if they use religious arguments, I will not hesitate to refute those arguments. 

I was thinking is the possibility of driving people away a sufficient reason to declare religion immune from criticism. But there is no reason to declare any idea immune to criticism. Salman Rushdie said it better “The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible.” Anything can drive non-vegans away. The mere fact that you are a vegan can spoke them or the claim that there is no moral difference between killing a human animal or non-human animal. What’s going to be? Are we going to select some ideas open to criticism and other not in other words to declare that critical thinking is not welcomed in animal rights movement or we will discuss all ideas. It’s not like we need people to critically think about their action towards other animals. 

You may argue that religious vegans are more progressive that religious non-vegans. They support women’s, LGBTIQ rights etc. But that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t criticize religion. Vegans who are religious cherry-pick their religious books as religious non-vegans. Both ignore parts of their books which doesn’t support their word views.

I avoid talking about people, I rather talk about ideas, but now I have to do it. In discussions I have seen that religious people don’t like any criticism of religion even a joke about religion is off limit. Any criticism of their religion isn’t welcomed. Religious people tend to be insecure spoiled individuals with whom you must be careful and not say anything that may offend them like expressing your opinion about religion because they love to stay in their bubble that logic and reason cannot usually penetrate. They are personification of ignorance and proud of it.

I must say it again I didn’t wrote this post to declare open season on religious people, or to claim that we need to go after religious people every time when talking to religious non-vegan. My point is that discussion of religion and it′s critiques are sometimes required, because of its importance. And I see nothing positive in surrendering critical thinking, it impedes progress of society.

No right or wrong

I want to write about one of the most troubling aspects on animal advocacy is the claim that everything helps, there is no wrong action, any type of advocacy helps. That begs the question if everything helps and under everything is nothing, does that mean that doing nothing helps. Does not being vegan help other sentient beings?

If everything helps there is no right or wrong. Moral truths don’t exist under that proposition. I know this is a crazy proposition, but if there is right or wrong that mean that some actions are wrong. We can and must say that some type of advocacy isn’t right. Being painted as elitists or divisive shouldn’t deter us from claiming that some actions are wrong, immoral and counter-productive.

What is at stake, fate of countless sentient beings outweighs the insults, name calling taken by supporters of one type of advocacy. Some will say with some many other animals beings used, tortured we must do whatever possible to help them. Not everything will help. There are wrong and right actions to be taken.

Wrong actions/advocacies have been taken for decades, centuries. You may say how I dare to claim that some action/advocacy is wrong. It’s easy; it’s called freedom of speech and critical thinking. You can try it sometimes; it’s good for the mind. If I accept your claim that there is no wrong actions that advocates can take, how I will paint an actions which hasn’t produce results or can’t produce it at all or is counter-productive like a claim that humans are cancer. By the way you also are saying that you are also a cancer.

Let’s take single issue campaigns that so many advocates are doing, for a long time. Have they, SICs brought us close to equality of sentient beings. No, more other animals are used than ever. Have they at least brought results in their narrow focus campaigns? No, people still wear fur. Ok, they are not wrong but they failed miserably. We have a different opinion about rightness or wrongness of an action. You opinion about those things is drowning in subjectivity.

Welfarists have a crazy claim that welfarism will bring us closer to rights of other animals. One little thing can interfere with that claim. And that is that welfarism is based on immoral notion that other sentient beings are ours to be used, but we shouldn’t impose suffering over what is required to produce animal products. Basing notion of welfarism can, but I don’t want to sound too much judgmental, create a problem if you accept the idea that other animals must have rights and advocate for that. Advocating for different methods of killing sentient beings, bigger cages will how bring us closer to rights, by magic. Don’t get me started with but we have no evidence that welfarism doesn’t work when comes to animal rights. You are serious. Welfarism is 2 century old. How many more years have to pass without results before you see it won’t and can’t bring rights?

If all types of advocacy help why there are no more vegans. There should be more vegans, if every action helps. But there are not. And I read that we cannot know that some actions won’t help. Actually we can. Telling someone that people who wear fur should be raped doesn’t help. “Every woman ensconced in fur should endure a rape so vicious that it scars them forever. While every man entrenched in fur should suffer an anal raping so horrific that they become disemboweled. ” ~ Gary Yourofsky.

Calling people names, insulting them, promotion of vegetarianism aren’t helping. I was told that every bit counts. If a non-vegan today eats less animal products or doesn’t wear leather or other animal products, is he helping other animals? Under immoral every bit counts approach he is. It doesn’t matter that by not being vegan he is hurting other animals. Being vegan is at least what we can do, if we claim that we care about other animals.